So Far the participation has been extremly poor. Only 4 people so far. Not nearly enough to draw any conclusion.
Values are in FamilyTreeDNA order.
Member No. I.D. Haplogroup
1 2WHKS Roots I1c I1c I
Cakebread
14 23 16 10 15 16 11 13 11 14 12 30
3 UPVRC Roots I1c I1c
Bartlett
14 23 16 10 15 16 11 13 11 13 12 29
4 MN72R Roots I1c I1c
Bartlett
14 23 16 10 15 16 11 13 11 13 12 29
5 UR8X3 Roots I1c I1c
Bartlett
14 23 16 10 15 16 11 13 12 13 12 29 15 8 10 11 11 27 15 20 26 11 14 14 15
2 P6K88 R1b1c9b
Cakebread
14 23 16 11 11 15 12 12 13 13 14 29 17 8 9 11 11 25 15 19 28 14 15 17 17 11 11
6 YZG5T R1b
Bourgeois
14 23 15 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 13 29
7 AQR6T
Walworth
14 23 15 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 14 29
8 EGGH8 R1b1
Rhodes
14 23 15 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 14 29
9 5VSMJ
Cakebread
14 23 15 11 11 15 12 12 13 13 29
Only 2 Cakebread branches tested so far so no real conclusion as to our ancestry. 2 different Haplogroups!
This means M1 was last related to M2 and M9 about 9150 years ago.
The Bartlett family seems to be closer related to M1 branch with a MRCA (Most Recent Common Ancestor) some 1100 years ago. They also come from a village very near this Cakebreads!
M6 (Bourgeois) and M7 (Walworth) and M8 (Rhodes) are the closest ancestors in the Ysearch database to M2 and M9
M1- Nearest haplotype match to I1c type 19 according towww.freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~gallgaedhil/haplo_i1c_part_3.htm
M2 and M9 - Since Haplogroups Q and R come from Haplogroup P this is the most likely reason why Whit Athey's predictor (www.home.comcast.net/~whitathey/predictorinstr.htm) is have trouble determining the difference. They share many of the same marker values.
Using McGee’s predictor (www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility.html) the result shows that-
M1 had a MRCA to RootsI1c modal 1110 ya.
M2 had a MRCA to R1B modal (R1b1b, defined by a mutation at M73) 2850 ya. And a MRCA to the Q Modal of 4200 ya.
M2 MRCA to M3 and M4 is 7350 ya.
M3,M4 and M5 are related with a MRCA 450ya. And a MRCA to the RootsI1c Modal 450 ya.
M3.M4 and M5 are probably related to M1 with a MRCA 1110 ya. But not related to M2 with a MRCA 7350 ya.
M2 has had additional SNP testing to prove the R1b1c designation. The results were sent to John McEwan who is researching the R1 Haplogroup and he wrote back saying-
As an aside I see your DYS492=13 and this usually indicates S21+ or haplogroup R1b1c9. Now I also have to say something else, I hope you are not offended, but your haplotype is very unusual for R1b1c. It must be very rare or there is a data entry error. Could you please cross check it with your FTDNA entry? I found Rhodes EGGH8 which is a GD=5 of 5 away on 37 markers and his ancestors also came from England (Lancashire to be exact). The rest are very distant. The entry is even more unusual for a potential S21+, in fact it is unusual enough to maybe even affect the whole groups age estimate.
If you get the chance and are financially able I would also test for S21 and S28 SNPs at Ethnoancestry. This of course is only if you are interested.
The real question is just where this haplotype originated and is there another as yet unsampled group out there? The close match suggests an English origin, but S21+ is thought to have originated from the region North of the Rhine and especially north of the Elbe and in England is coincident with an Anglo-saxon invasion origin into England between the 5th and 10th century. This probably sampled the “western” portion of S21 and there is a haplotype cluster called Frisian that is also solidly S21+. I therefore went to Yhrd and searched your haplotype (with the small number of markers they use) and got two matches out of 40,000 odd samples: 1 in Stuttgart Germany and 1 in Wroclaw Poland. The 7 1 step mismatches also all came from the region north of the Rhine stretching from Hamburg to Keiv and most frequent (n=2) from Poland. This fits the picture of a central north European origin consistent with a S21+ SNP genotype (if confirmed).
It also asks the question of whether your family has a more recent connection to Germany/Poland for instance in the last 400 years …..
Hope this has been useful
John McEwan
The results of additional SNP (S-series)testing are back and M2 is R1b1c9b
This is what John McEwan had to say:-
What a discovery S29+ !!!!!
This will set the list buzzing, S29+ was until recently thought to be a recent mutation limited to Britain, the first person turned up yesterday with S29+ from Germany and your unusual haplotypereally sets things humming. This will make estimates of this group very old, and estimates of S21 increase as well.
When I finish updating the table I will try and summarise all these results.
Some have felt S29+ is a native ancestral group from pre-roman Britain. My feeling is the group is quite old and based on your matches I think may have originated in Eastern Europe and have several strands.
Cheers
John McEwan
